[JN] magik ???
toobman57 at gmail.com
Tue Feb 2 14:37:54 CST 2021
Well... you're probably RIGHT about the marketing BS. Let's just say that
there is no way in hell that I'm going to bet more than about $2 that
Sendust stores energy??? Again, not saying you're wrong, I just hadn't
heard of that. Now that I think about it, one possible alternative is that
the high resistance of Sendust means that the power stored in the coil (and
in the ether, due to Sendust's high mu) doesn't get shorted out? Yeah, I'm
reaching... In any case, I certainly HOPE that Sendust is indeed a close
second to the really good permalloys, because if that's the case, then
maybe we can add a small. inexpensive quantity of something better
(supermalloy, maybe even a good permalloy) to the main Sendust core via a
magnetic crossover and get a truly great transformer, output as well as
signal, for a MUCH lower price. Hey, I can dream...
On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 12:55 PM Christian Rintelen via Sound <
sound at soundlist.org> wrote:
> i beg to differ. marc sent us to a manufacturer’s website with tons of
> hyperbole and marketing BS. (and believe me, i know a rat when i smell a
> rat — i earn my living writing marketing copy (i try to stay away from the
> BS but i don’t always succeed. clients pay, clients have the say…)
> he asked to «take a stab on just what is those cans», and i quoted the
> website where it says that it’s a transformer with 6 dB gain.
> the detour started when i rambled on sophia’s claim to have used «the
> latest science and exotic high tech materials» (even more marketing BS).
> what advantage has science brought to the design of audio line level
> transformers in the last, say, 20 years? and what exotic high tech
> materials could be used when winding a transformer? wire is out as copper
> or silver are not really exotic, so that leaves us with the core. amorphous
> and nanocrystalline stuff is commonplace in the SMPS department. (besides:
> not every core that performs brilliantly in an SMPS will do the same at 20
> hz…) i wrote about my experiences with nanocrystalline and amorphous cores
> and stated that a good old mu-metal / permalloy core can reproduce music
> just as good. (btw: cores with a high percentage of nickel cost more than
> the same size with amorophous or nanocrystalline Fe based cores. cobalt is
> a different story.)
> so the emperor’s new clothes need to be auditioned. maybe the Magik Box is
> in fact a very good line level transformer. maybe not. you don’t know, i
> don’t know, and marc doesn’t either.
> so where is the credible source quoting that this Magik transformer
> «sounds so good»? (and no, the audio reviewer sophia quotes does not count.
> having been an audio reviewer myself, i have yet to meet one that i can
> PS i’m not so sure Sendust would be that good for a transformer core.
> Sendust (aka Kool Mu) is often used in power supply chokes … because it
> stores energy well. is the capability to store energy better than other
> materials a good thing in an audio transformer? i don’t know (no irony).
> but i can imagine that the release of the stored energy «smears» the
> timing. isn’t the best core … an air core? because it does exactely the
> opposite — it doesn’t store any energy? (btw. Sendust has seen wide spread
> use in audio when tape and cassette recorders were still mass produced.
> many of the better recorders used Sendust heads because it is very hard.)
> _ _ _
> aka christian rintelen
> Am 02.02.2021 um 18:58 schrieb Philip Yates via Sound <sound at soundlist.org
> The post by Marc included an hypothesis, namely that Magik boxes
> consistently stomped every other SUT out there, and he asked if someone
> wanted to take a stab at how such a thing could be. Now, it is indeed true
> that Marc's hypothesis may be nonsense, but true scientific reasoning does
> include the tool of assuming that an hypothesis is true, and then
> speculating about how it could be true, as well as drawing conclusions that
> necessarily follow from the premise.
> I gave my wild-ass-guess as to how Marc's hypothesis could be true, and
> went on to describe the idea behind that WAG, namely combining two
> different soft magnetic materials in a way that created a "magnetic
> crossover," thereby giving the core an extremely low hysteresis and normal
> signal range at a sane, or at least saner, price.There are lots of ways to
> shoot holes in my thoughts on the matter, because they may, in fact, be
> full of crap. And it is also true that the initial hypothesis may be
> nonsense. However, it would NOT necessarily follow, i.e., the refutation of
> the hypothesis would NOT prove, that my ideas for making a superior and
> affordable signal transformer (or even output tranny) are false. Those are
> two different subjects, and we must not draw conclusions about the one from
> the other.
> You're a good guy -- e.g., you believe that even "evil conservatives" like
> myself should be allowed to participate in discussions -- and you know at
> least 10 times more about audio than I do, but you DO practice the "modern
> scientific method," which unfortunately is actually a mix of the reasoning
> we need to use for debate, politics, and the social arena, and "true
> scientific reasoning," which is aimed at obtaining the most accurate and
> insightful descriptions of reality. I don't say that as a "real criticism,"
> because unless you STUMBLE across that fact, as I did, there's no normal,
> sane reason for believing that it is true. But it is true, and one of the
> defective techniques of the modern scientific method is to use the debate
> tactic of SHIFTING from a discussion of a topic, to the hypothesis behind
> that topic, when the debate isn't going one's way. That's good for debate,
> bad for true science.
> There's a good chance that I'm wrong, and if so, I hope you and/or others
> figure it out, so I can quit wasting my time thinking about it! I've got
> tons of other ideas I can waste my time on. ;-)
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 3:58 AM Christian Rintelen via Sound <
> sound at soundlist.org> wrote:
>> Well the question was why do the Magik trannys sound so good,
>> have i missed something? who says it «sounds so good»?
>> _ _ _
>> aka christian rintelen
>> Am 02.02.2021 um 02:14 schrieb Philip Yates via Sound <
>> sound at soundlist.org>:
>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 4:59 PM Christian Rintelen <christian at rintelen.ch>
>>> AFAIK peerless used the pinstripe design only for large signal i.e.
>>> output transformers (i’m not even sure whether they only used it for SE
>>> OPTs). if you have an airgap to avoid saturating the core, the inductance
>>> drops like a rock. to make up for some of that loss, the pinstripe makes
>>> perfectly sense — the airgap prevents saturating the permalloy (aka
>>> mu-metal) too fast, and the SiFe gets a jump start so to say. but applying
>>> the same principle to a microphone or phono cartridge transformer doesn’t
>>> make sense. first, because there is no DC to saturate the core. second, the
>>> signal voltage is so small that it will never saturate even a pure nickel
>>> core. third, these types of transformers were the first toroids as soon as
>>> these became available. and why would anybody roll SiFe and permalloy into
>>> a toroid??
>> Well the question was why do the Magik trannys sound so good, and my WAG
>> was that they used two materials, not in a "mix" configuration (like
>> bypassing a cap) but in a "crossover" configuration. With or without a gap
>> -- and almost everyone in the past used a gap to linearize the mu, although
>> Vitroperm 500f and a few other new materials have very linear mus --
>> reversing the current by a small amount puts the core into a "hysteresis
>> zone" where the mu drops to almost nothing. You say that Peerless only used
>> pinstriping in their output trannys, and that it doesn't make sense to use
>> Si-Fe + permalloy in small signal trannies. True. But before drawing
>> conclusions, we should ALWAYS look at a situation from as many viewpoints
>> as we can see. In this case, they used Si-Fe for output trannys in part
>> because a permalloy tranny would have been ungodly expensive (and bigger).
>> From that point of view, we might come to the conclusion that they used
>> pinstriping because an affordable output tranny had to use a magnetically
>> inferior core, unlike a small signal tranny, not because of the presence of
>> DC or an air-gap. And I'm pretty certain that I never suggested that the
>> Magik trannys either used Si-Fe cores, or should use them.
>>> core material tecchnology has advanced quickly and with big leaps fueled
>>> by (among others) the demand for «faster» core material in switching power
>>> supplies and regulators. i think the peerless engineers would be pinstriped
>>> with envy if they saw what materials are available today. and i’m equally
>>> convinced they would have switched to toroids instead of taking the scenic
>>> detour with pinstriped EI or M cores.
>> True, but again, irrelevant to the (possibly incorrect and/or useless)
>> point I was aiming at. None of the amorphous/nano stuff to my knowledge has
>> the small hysteresis of even Sendust, lat alone mumetal, permalloy, or the
>> best ever (to my knowledge), supermalloy. This means that very low level
>> transients will fall into the hysteresis zone, just like with Si-Fe. With
>> luck and a lot of work, at least *one* of the good materials, meaning
>> materials with very low hysteresis, ranging from the amorphous/nano stuff
>> to Sendust to the permalloys (and maybe something else), will have a curve
>> leading *out* of their hysteresis zone that is at least an adequate
>> inverse of the saturation curve of supermalloy, thereby allowing the
>> supermalloy to add another 10 dB to 20 dB of resolution to the tranny. This
>> is technically equivalent to a boost in the dynamic range, although that
>> assumes that the trannys are always being used such that the peaks just
>> begin to saturate the tranny.
>> You're also missing another point, which is that if this trick works with
>> one of the Sendust alloys, then we could have *very* good, very
>> INEXPENSIVE signal trannys that would not only make DIY amps and preamps a
>> lot easier to design and make in general, but would also allow the use of
>> circuits that are all but impossible without a signal tranny. Remember, I
>> actually TRY to think "outside the box." ;-) Also, at some point, if a
>> signal tranny's dynamic range ever exceeds what we can hear, then except
>> for the "character" added by the tranny (perhaps from the wire), a tranny
>> that has a larger dynamic range, and is MUCH more expensive, will add no
>> audible improvement whatsoever. Well, unless several are used in a row
>> (this obviously assumes "all else being equal," e.g., frequency response).
>>> (btw i remember reading a paper by sowter senior (brian sowter’s father)
>>> advocating airgapped cores even for PP-OPTs (and we’re talking post-war
>>> cheap english steel, not peremalloy or that kind of stuff). his reasoning
>>> was that the airgap flattened the inductance and this the impedance jumps
>>> of the transformer; he’d rather use a bigger core and put more wire on it
>>> than dispose of the airgap. which of course makes perfect sense as there is
>>> (or was at the time) no PP-amp that had perfectly symmetrical current draw
>>> through both windings at all levels and frequencies. even small AC or DC
>>> imbalancies can drive an ungapped PP OPT into saturation so you needed
>>> either an oversized core (expensive after WWII!) or a smaller core with an
>>> airgap. so why not take the big core and apply a small airgap? it will give
>>> you headroom re: DC saturation *and* a flatter inductance curve)
>>> on the other hand, there is absolutely no reason to use any of these
>>> high tech materials for a mains transformer. quite the contrary — you want
>>> to keep the bandwith of a 50/60 Hz core as limited as possible so it acts
>>> as a filter.
>> Now *that's* a good point!
>>> ((hold the press: i just localized sowter’s AES paper. enjoy.))
>> Excellent, thank you, I have already read part of it, and will definitely
>> keep this!
>>> _ _ _
>>> aka christian rintelen
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