[JN] magik ???

Christian Rintelen christian at rintelen.ch
Tue Feb 2 06:25:34 CST 2021


🤣

©
_ _ _
aka christian rintelen

> Am 02.02.2021 um 13:20 schrieb Bjørn Kolbrek <bkolbrek at gmail.com>:
> 
> Wasn't it right there in the marketing blurb? 
> 
> -Bjørn
> 
> On 02/02/2021 09:57, Christian Rintelen via Sound wrote:
>>>>  
>>>> Well the question was why do the Magik trannys sound so good, 
>> 
>> have i missed something? who says it «sounds so good»?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ©
>> _ _ _
>> aka christian rintelen
>> 
>>> Am 02.02.2021 um 02:14 schrieb Philip Yates via Sound <sound at soundlist.org <mailto:sound at soundlist.org>>:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 4:59 PM Christian Rintelen <christian at rintelen.ch <mailto:christian at rintelen.ch>> wrote:
>>> AFAIK peerless used the pinstripe design only for large signal i.e. output transformers (i’m not even sure whether they only used it for SE OPTs). if you have an airgap to avoid saturating the core, the inductance drops like a rock. to make up for some of that loss, the pinstripe makes perfectly sense — the airgap prevents saturating the permalloy (aka mu-metal) too fast, and the SiFe gets a jump start so to say. but applying the same principle to a microphone or phono cartridge transformer doesn’t make sense. first, because there is no DC to saturate the core. second, the signal voltage is so small that it will never saturate even a pure nickel core. third, these types of transformers were the first toroids as soon as these became available. and why would anybody roll SiFe and permalloy into a toroid??
>>>  
>>> Well the question was why do the Magik trannys sound so good, and my WAG was that they used two materials, not in a "mix" configuration (like bypassing a cap) but in a "crossover" configuration. With or without a gap -- and almost everyone in the past used a gap to linearize the mu, although Vitroperm 500f and a few other new materials have very linear mus -- reversing the current by a small amount puts the core into a "hysteresis zone" where the mu drops to almost nothing. You say that Peerless only used pinstriping in their output trannys, and that it doesn't make sense to use Si-Fe + permalloy in small signal trannies. True. But before drawing conclusions, we should ALWAYS look at a situation from as many viewpoints as we can see. In this case, they used Si-Fe for output trannys in part because a permalloy tranny would have been ungodly expensive (and bigger). From that point of view, we might come to the conclusion that they used pinstriping because an affordable output tranny had to use a magnetically inferior core, unlike a small signal tranny, not because of the presence of DC or an air-gap. And I'm pretty certain that I never suggested that the Magik trannys either used Si-Fe cores, or should use them.
>>>  
>>> core material tecchnology has advanced quickly and with big leaps fueled by (among others) the demand for «faster» core material in switching power supplies and regulators. i think the peerless engineers would be pinstriped with envy if they saw what materials are available today. and i’m equally convinced they would have switched to toroids instead of taking the scenic detour with pinstriped EI or M cores.
>>> 
>>> True, but again, irrelevant to the (possibly incorrect and/or useless) point I was aiming at. None of the amorphous/nano stuff to my knowledge has the small hysteresis of even Sendust, lat alone mumetal, permalloy, or the best ever (to my knowledge), supermalloy. This means that very low level transients will fall into the hysteresis zone, just like with Si-Fe. With luck and a lot of work, at least one of the good materials, meaning materials with very low hysteresis, ranging from the amorphous/nano stuff to Sendust to the permalloys (and maybe something else), will have a curve leading out of their hysteresis zone that is at least an adequate inverse of the saturation curve of supermalloy, thereby allowing the supermalloy to add another 10 dB to 20 dB of resolution to the tranny. This is technically equivalent to a boost in the dynamic range, although that assumes that the trannys are always being used such that the peaks just begin to saturate the tranny.
>>> 
>>> You're also missing another point, which is that if this trick works with one of the Sendust alloys, then we could have very good, very INEXPENSIVE signal trannys that would not only make DIY amps and preamps a lot easier to design and make in general, but would also allow the use of circuits that are all but impossible without a signal tranny. Remember, I actually TRY to think "outside the box." ;-) Also, at some point, if a signal tranny's dynamic range ever exceeds what we can hear, then except for the "character" added by the tranny (perhaps from the wire), a tranny that has a larger dynamic range, and is MUCH more expensive, will add no audible improvement whatsoever. Well, unless several are used in a row (this obviously assumes "all else being equal," e.g., frequency response). 
>>> 
>>> (btw i remember reading a paper by sowter senior (brian sowter’s father) advocating airgapped cores even for PP-OPTs (and we’re talking post-war cheap english steel, not peremalloy or that kind of stuff). his reasoning was that the airgap flattened the inductance and this the impedance jumps of the transformer; he’d rather use a bigger core and put more wire on it than dispose of the airgap. which of course makes perfect sense as there is (or was at the time) no PP-amp that had perfectly symmetrical current draw through both windings at all levels and frequencies. even small AC or DC imbalancies can drive an ungapped PP OPT into saturation so you needed either an oversized core (expensive after WWII!) or a smaller core with an airgap. so why not take the big core and apply a small airgap? it will give you headroom re: DC saturation *and* a flatter inductance curve)
>>> 
>>> on the other hand, there is absolutely no reason to use any of these high tech materials for a mains transformer. quite the contrary — you want to keep the bandwith of a 50/60 Hz core as limited as possible so it acts as a filter.
>>> 
>>> Now that's a good point! 
>>> 
>>> ((hold the press: i just localized sowter’s AES paper. enjoy.))
>>> 
>>> Excellent, thank you, I have already read part of it, and will definitely keep this! 
>>> 
>>> Phil
>>> 
>>> ©
>>> _ _ _
>>> aka christian rintelen
>>> 
>>> 
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