[JN] magik ???

Bjørn Kolbrek bkolbrek at gmail.com
Tue Feb 2 06:20:49 CST 2021


Wasn't it right there in the marketing blurb?

-Bjørn

On 02/02/2021 09:57, Christian Rintelen via Sound wrote:
>>> Well the question was why do the Magik trannys sound so good,
>
> have i missed something? who says it «sounds so good»?
>
>
>
> ©
> _ _ _
> aka christian rintelen
>
>> Am 02.02.2021 um 02:14 schrieb Philip Yates via Sound 
>> <sound at soundlist.org <mailto:sound at soundlist.org>>:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 4:59 PM Christian Rintelen 
>> <christian at rintelen.ch <mailto:christian at rintelen.ch>> wrote:
>>
>>     AFAIK peerless used the pinstripe design only for large signal
>>     i.e. output transformers (i’m not even sure whether they only
>>     used it for SE OPTs). if you have an airgap to avoid saturating
>>     the core, the inductance drops like a rock. to make up for some
>>     of that loss, the pinstripe makes perfectly sense — the airgap
>>     prevents saturating the permalloy (aka mu-metal) too fast, and
>>     the SiFe gets a jump start so to say. but applying the same
>>     principle to a microphone or phono cartridge transformer doesn’t
>>     make sense. first, because there is no DC to saturate the core.
>>     second, the signal voltage is so small that it will never
>>     saturate even a pure nickel core. third, these types of
>>     transformers were the first toroids as soon as these became
>>     available. and why would anybody roll SiFe and permalloy into a
>>     toroid??
>>
>> Well the question was why do the Magik trannys sound so good, and my 
>> WAG was that they used two materials, not in a "mix" configuration 
>> (like bypassing a cap) but in a "crossover" configuration. With or 
>> without a gap -- and almost everyone in the past used a gap to 
>> linearize the mu, although Vitroperm 500f and a few other new 
>> materials have very linear mus -- reversing the current by a small 
>> amount puts the core into a "hysteresis zone" where the mu drops to 
>> almost nothing. You say that Peerless only used pinstriping in their 
>> output trannys, and that it doesn't make sense to use Si-Fe + 
>> permalloy in small signal trannies. True. But before drawing 
>> conclusions, we should ALWAYS look at a situation from as many 
>> viewpoints as we can see. In this case, they used Si-Fe for output 
>> trannys in part because a permalloy tranny would have been ungodly 
>> expensive (and bigger). From that point of view, we might come to the 
>> conclusion that they used pinstriping because an affordable output 
>> tranny had to use a magnetically inferior core, unlike a small signal 
>> tranny, not because of the presence of DC or an air-gap. And I'm 
>> pretty certain that I never suggested that the Magik trannys either 
>> used Si-Fe cores, or should use them.
>>
>>     core material tecchnology has advanced quickly and with big leaps
>>     fueled by (among others) the demand for «faster» core material in
>>     switching power supplies and regulators. i think the peerless
>>     engineers would be pinstriped with envy if they saw what
>>     materials are available today. and i’m equally convinced they
>>     would have switched to toroids instead of taking the scenic
>>     detour with pinstriped EI or M cores.
>>
>>
>> True, but again, irrelevant to the (possibly incorrect and/or 
>> useless) point I was aiming at. None of the amorphous/nano stuff to 
>> my knowledge has the small hysteresis of even Sendust, lat alone 
>> mumetal, permalloy, or the best ever (to my knowledge), supermalloy. 
>> This means that very low level transients will fall into the 
>> hysteresis zone, just like with Si-Fe. With luck and a lot of work, 
>> at least /one/ of the good materials, meaning materials with very low 
>> hysteresis, ranging from the amorphous/nano stuff to Sendust to the 
>> permalloys (and maybe something else), will have a curve leading 
>> /out/ of their hysteresis zone that is at least an adequate inverse 
>> of the saturation curve of supermalloy, thereby allowing the 
>> supermalloy to add another 10 dB to 20 dB of resolution to the 
>> tranny. This is technically equivalent to a boost in the dynamic 
>> range, although that assumes that the trannys are always being used 
>> such that the peaks just begin to saturate the tranny.
>>
>> You're also missing another point, which is that if this trick works 
>> with one of the Sendust alloys, then we could have /very/ good, very 
>> INEXPENSIVE signal trannys that would not only make DIY amps and 
>> preamps a lot easier to design and make in general, but would also 
>> allow the use of circuits that are all but impossible without a 
>> signal tranny. Remember, I actually TRY to think "outside the box." 
>> ;-) Also, at some point, if a signal tranny's dynamic range ever 
>> exceeds what we can hear, then except for the "character" added by 
>> the tranny (perhaps from the wire), a tranny that has a larger 
>> dynamic range, and is MUCH more expensive, will add no audible 
>> improvement whatsoever. Well, unless several are used in a row (this 
>> obviously assumes "all else being equal," e.g., frequency response).
>>
>>
>>     (btw i remember reading a paper by sowter senior (brian sowter’s
>>     father) advocating airgapped cores even for PP-OPTs (and we’re
>>     talking post-war cheap english steel, not peremalloy or that kind
>>     of stuff). his reasoning was that the airgap flattened the
>>     inductance and this the impedance jumps of the transformer; he’d
>>     rather use a bigger core and put more wire on it than dispose of
>>     the airgap. which of course makes perfect sense as there is (or
>>     was at the time) no PP-amp that had perfectly symmetrical current
>>     draw through both windings at all levels and frequencies. even
>>     small AC or DC imbalancies can drive an ungapped PP OPT into
>>     saturation so you needed either an oversized core (expensive
>>     after WWII!) or a smaller core with an airgap. so why not take
>>     the big core and apply a small airgap? it will give you headroom
>>     re: DC saturation *and* a flatter inductance curve)
>>
>>     on the other hand, there is absolutely no reason to use any of
>>     these high tech materials for a mains transformer. quite the
>>     contrary — you want to keep the bandwith of a 50/60 Hz core as
>>     limited as possible so it acts as a filter.
>>
>>
>> Now /that's/ a good point!
>>
>>
>>     ((hold the press: i just localized sowter’s AES paper. enjoy.))
>>
>>
>> Excellent, thank you, I have already read part of it, and will 
>> definitely keep this!
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>     ©
>>     _ _ _
>>     aka christian rintelen
>>
>>
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